Dodger Thoughts

Jon Weisman's outlet for dealing psychologically with the Los Angeles Dodgers, baseball and life

Snazzy Dazzy

Happy confusing post-holiday Thursday to you …

  • Bill Petti of Fangraphs takes note of the evolution of strikeouts over the years and finds that Dodger great Dazzy Vance might be the top strikeout pitcher of all-time.
  • Jim Eisenreich, who tormented the Dodgers for years before putting on a Dodger uniform (and tormenting them some more), is the subject of a must-read piece by Bradford Doolittle of Baseball Prospectus.
  • Here’s Chad Moriyama with a look at who’s worth pursuing among the latest in Dodger trade rumors.
  • Congrats to the Hardball Times and Fangraphs on their betrothal.
  • Belated farewell, Ben Davidson.


What so proudly we hailed


Thumbs down on Gordon’s health


  1. Even a world-class blog headline writer has an off day every once in awhile.

    • Anonymous

      A huge, huge percentage of a blog’s content comes from the readers, not the blog owner. Jon can’t be blamed for our lack of creativity. And it is for sure us. A blog is like “rock soup”, if the readers don’t throw things into the pot, it is thin indeed.

      • Calm down. i’m just joking. Jon writes so many clever headlines and i’ve said so.

        • Anonymous

          No uncalmness here… Are you old enough to have read the “rock soup” story in school? Fifth grade, I think, which makes it about 60 years ago…

          • sorry don’t remember rock soup. not necessarily because it didn’t happen or i didn’t witness it but memory is a fleeting skill.

  2. Anonymous

    >> Bill Petti of Fangraphs takes note of the evolution of strikeouts over the years and finds that Dodger great Dazzy Vance might be the top strikeout pitcher of all-time.

    The article makes this statement:

    >> No starting pitcher who lasted any significant amount of time ever finished his career with a strikeout rate higher than 30%. The closest  is Randy Johnson and his 28.5% strikeout rate.

    I see two other Dodgers, one past and one present, in the top 10 on that list.  :) (Note that that list shows only the strikeout rate, not how much better the rate is than the league average, the stat by which Vance exceeds all others.)

    Cool article!

    • Anonymous

      I don’t understand what list you referred to in your last paragraph
      Also, how do you make blank lines?

      • Anonymous

        >> I don’t understand what list you referred to in your last paragraph

        The Fangraphs article in the link from Jon’s post has the second quote in my post, above.  In that quote, there’s a link from the words “and his 28.5% strikeout rate” which takes you to a list of pitchers and their strikeout rates.  That’s the list to which I refer. (Sorry, I should have made that clearer. My bad.)

        >> Also, how do you make blank lines?

        Just hit the ENTER key twice, as you would do on most word processing software.  Unlike the previous DT site, this one creates a blank line by doing so.  No need for workarounds like creating a line with a punctuation mark, etc.  :)

  3. Anonymous

    If we take the position that moving Ethier to first would be an offensive upgrade over Loney, that Rivera and Abreau share left field, then we need an outfielder who can play right or center; if he can play center then we can jettison Gwynn who adds little offensively. And a third baseman.  I’d take Wells from the Angels if they’d eat part of the salary, but I’d rather have Morales from them…

    • Anonymous

      I would jettison both Rivera and Abreu before Gwynn. Sure, he doesn’t hit much, and this season he’s been particularly bad (like the rest of the team) at the plate, but he can contribute with his glove. According to fWAR, Gwynn was the 12th most valuable LF in the majors between 2009 and 2011–not too shabby for a guy always derided as a fifth outfielder.

      • Anonymous

        >> this season he’s been particularly bad (like the rest of the team) at the plate

        Not really worse than some other years.  Tony’s one of those odd/even guys, hitting better in odd-numbered years and worse in even-numbered years like 2012.  This year his OPS is better than in 2006, 2008, or 2010, although it’s worse than in 2007, 2009, or 2011.

      • Anonymous

        I agree.

    • Anonymous

      Why would you take the position of moving Ethier to 1B in the first place? Is the club contemplating such a move?

      • Anonymous

        Moving Ethier to the pitcher’s mound would be an offensive upgrade, too – in both sense of the word “offensive”.  :)

  4. Anonymous

    Thursday Notes..

    1.  I hope you all had a great 4th!
    2.  I guess Carlos Lee simply wanted to “take his talents to South Beach” … :-)
    3.  Ethier’s extension is a blessing.  Reasonable money, and  makes him more trade-able as the team getting him won’t be in a “rent – a – vet” situation.
    4.  Yes…of all the guys on this club with value…. Andre ( I do like him ) is the one I’d be willing to deal if it would land me the arm or position player we need.
    5.  Nice to see Mark Ellis last night.
    6.  Felt really, really bad for Dee.
    7.  Seems to me that after that game a few nights ago where he made the 2 errors, I think he simply said to himself (or perhaps with the help of Donny) “no time to be tenative, I’m just gonna go for it on each and every play…and be as aggressive as I can.” 
    Hey, sometimes, simply getting mad can help get you to that next level.  Happy Healing, Dee! 

    • Carlos Lee had to go due to contract ramifications. You’re calling Ethier’s contract REASONABLE? They had to sign him no doubt. BUT REASONABLE?

      • Anonymous

        All it takes is an “OF need” to surface for the Yanks, Sox, Rangers, Angels, etc…
        He’s well within their range ….

        • Anonymous

           I’m not saying I’d go run out and  trade him just to trade him….
          However, I watch everything with a very critical eye (sometimes, to a fault…and yes, nobody is harder on ‘me’ than ‘me’) ….. and, I’m concerned about committing to Andre  long term.

          -I’ve seen him run to the wrong place at the wall in order to try to catch a fly ball.
          -He’s an emotional player, but to me… more emotional for himself… unlike Kirk Gibson who’s emotions not only helped elevate his play, but that of his teammates as well.
          -I didn’t like  his  little “attitude” I read about when he arrived at Spring Training this year.
          -I didn’t like that whole thing TJ Simers uncovered between ‘Dre, Ned, and Donny last year regarding his injury…. (hey, people can bag TJ all they want, but to me… “the proof is in the pudding”…as Andre went on the DL very, very shortly after the story surfaced.
          -And, speaking of injuries…. Andre misses significant time just about every season.
          So, I don’t expect anybody else to agree with me.  It’s just how I see it.  :-)

        • Anonymous

          Yes, but so are many other OFs who perform just as well but with far, far less of a salary commitment. Plus you don’t go out and get a 5 year, $85m. contract just because a temporary need has risen. Let’s be reasonable. We might be able to live with the Ethier contract (barring injury or Uribe/Jones-like decline), but when I’m the Yankees I don’t go buy Ethier with my prospects when I can buy Reddick or Cespedes who are younger and cheaper.

          • Anonymous

             You make good points, TG.
            Wouldn’t it be fun to be a GM for a day?  I think it would.

          • Anonymous

            It’s probably not as fun as playing armchair GM with zero responsibilities. Well, it might be fun to be the GM of Oakland, since no one cares that you don’t win in Oakland, but not the Dodgers’ GM for sure.

          • Anonymous

            Maybe they were thinking about the previous RF they got from us.

          • Anonymous


  5. foul tip

    Amazing sometimes what can be accomplished with a workable goal, good plan, good people, good contacts, and a little luck.  And a whole lot of ignoring naysyers and cynics.

    No one could convince these guys they couldn’t start a successful baseball bat company–and have it develop quickly to a point at which some major leaguers use and like their product.

    Guess they’re hardheaded, like their Old Hickory namesake.|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE&nclick_check=1

    [If Gannett’s oh-so-thoughtful invitation to become a very valued subscriber pops up, just close (minimize) it. It’ll slink away long to the lower left enough to finish.]

  6. Anonymous

    the Davidson link made no sense to me

  7. Anonymous

    Well, I was right about the Dee Gordon era coming to a halt, but not necessarily for the expected reason.  Sorry to see the kid miss games this way.  but trading Gordon for Ellis is definitely one in the win column.  Trading Gwynn for Kemp will be an even bigger one next week. 

    Now, I’ve got James Loney in one hand and Juan Uribe the other.  I’m not sure what to do with either, but there’s a bag of balls I’ve had my eye on.

    • Anonymous

      One in each hand? Start clapping…

  8. Anonymous

    This is weird; the Petti article says Strasburg has thrown 181 ML innings, baseball-reference says 185

    • Anonymous

      The Petti article says 182 innings, not 181.  Maybe he wrote it (or at least, pulled the data) before Strasburg’s most recent outing of 3 innings on June 30.  Especially since Petti refers to Seidman’s article from last Thursday. (I know, the article is dated July 5, but the difference of 3 innings is exactly the same as his last appearance, so that would seem to explain it.)

      • Anonymous

        thanks and thanks to leading me to the list you mentioned below. I didn’y realize there were links in the original article.

  9. Logan White is live tweeting via the Dodgers twitter account right now, answering questions about the farm system, etc.  Good stuff:

  10. Anonymous

    You won’t want to miss the outstanding interview of Vin Scully by Hugh Hewitt, at

    • Anonymous

      Thank you, it was great.

    • Anonymous

       Everything else on this guy’s page is one huge Rule No. 5 violation.

      •  And not an objective violation. One that tips the scales in one direction only. (I don’t think much of Hewitt or his colleagues in talk-radio land, in case you’re wondering.)

        • Casey Barker

          Well, it’s not the Kieth Olbermann show.

        • Anonymous

           I’d never heard of him, and don’t care if I ever do again.

          • Anonymous

            The interview was wonderful, I didn’t look at the rest of the web-site. He asked good questions, pressed Vin on his boyhood which elicited the ruler story that I was not familiar with. He asked no political questions. The only possibly political remark came from Vin namely “… our prayers that the United States of America will remain and not change dramatically, which I fear.”

      • well please don’t look at my page cause i violate just about all of them. sorry. violating just one is kid’s play.

  11. Tonight:
    Herrera 7
    M Ellis 4
    Hairston Jr 5
    Rivera 3
    Cruz 6
    AJ Ellis 2
    Van Slyke 9
    Gwynn 8
    Eovaldi 1

    • Anonymous

      If that lineup gets a run, I’ll consider it a victory.

  12. The Dodgers are 0-0 when Luis Cruz bats fifth. 

    • Anonymous

       Keeping both Kennedy and Uribe out of the lineup earns him instant credibility here, at least.

      • how you feeling today WBB

      • Anonymous

        Since Hairston hasn’t started a game at 3rd since May 30, I am assuming Uribe is not available to play the field (for which I am glad); Kennedy is not starting because the D’back’s pitcher is LH.

      • Anonymous

        >> Keeping both Kennedy and Uribe out of the lineup earns him instant credibility here, at least.

        Loney too!

        The Dodgers have five position players on the roster with OPS below Loney’s/Rivera’s .640. Tonight’s lineup has two of them (Gwynn, SVS) and not the other three (Gordon, Kennedy, Uribe).

        It’s weird to look at the team’s roster and see only two outfielders.

  13. Anonymous

    Pulling for Cruz.  He’s been a nice jolt so far, and we could definitely use that for this series.

    That being said, if Eovaldi repeats his previous performance, wouldn’t much matter…

    • we have to remember how many starts Eovaldi has had in the Majors. let’s give him a little chance before we start dogging him.

      • Anonymous

        Not meaning to at all…  I’ve even picked him up to start for my fantasy team tonight.  I agree that he’s a work in progress, and his first three outings were good I thought..

      • Anonymous

        75 major league innings in which he’s walked almost as many guys as he’s struck out. Not sure what to make of a pitcher who throws 95 MPH but is basically right-handed Jamie Moyer when it comes to Ks.

        • right handed jamie moyer. that’s the comp your stats get you huh? wow

          • Anonymous

            Only when it comes to Ks. Eovaldi walks too many guys to be Jamie Moyer. Maybe he’ll put it together, but it might get ugly with our makeshift rightside of the infield and SVS and Herrera playing OF. Knock wood.

      • Anonymous

        This year Eovaldi has had five terrific starts, and then two bad ones that made his numbers look bad.  That’s pretty darn good overall, five out of seven good outings.

        • yeah stat guys look at the overall and think that shows all the trends and tells all the stories. bad stat guys.

        • Anonymous

          Miley has 13 starts this year; the last one was bad so that’s good

  14. so no more word on Dee?

  15. i’m going to go nuts and say missing bats is an overrated stat for starting pitchers. missing the sweet spot of the bat is what counts.

    • Anonymous

      Why not just miss the bat all together and eliminate any chance of a hit?

        • Anonymous

          That’s why God made bullpens.

          • damn it . the god argument. trumped.

          • Anonymous

            A certain HOF’r named Maddux struck out 6 per. Extremely overrated stat. SO/BB ratio much more important, IMHO.

          • foul tip

             Picking up on the Maddux mention, one of the more insightful interviews I ever saw about pitching featured him near career end:

            “Movement is more important than velocity.  Control is more important than velocity.  Command is more important than velocity.”  He hardly could be argued with.

            With Maddux some traditional stats may have gone by the wayside.  He just got results.

          • Anonymous

             Didn’t the Higgs boson make bullpens?

  16. Veryolddodgerfan, I think you’d go a long way if you weren’t so dismissive about stats and the people who use them. I’m not telling you how to embrace them (although, to be sure, there is hardly a baseball fan in the world who doesn’t embrace some kind of stat, old or new), but you seem to have a habit of using it as an insult whenever you disagree with someone.

    Just a thought from a not-too-far-from-old Dodger fan.  Be respectful of other people, and they tend to be more respectful of you.

    • i understand the comment Jon. However many people use chatrooms to constantly bash and ridicule others that aren’t here to defend themselves. Cowardly if you ask me. I like them to feel how those people would feel. they dish it all day long and are anything but respectful of those who play and work in the game of baseball. feel free to ban me.

      • i treat people who give respect with respect

        •  Well, I think people here have tried to be respectful of you, including people who embrace all kinds of stats.

      • Anonymous

        I believe I have found a new definition for “quixotic.”

      • I wasn’t looking to ban you.  And what happens at other chat rooms is irrelevant here. But I certainly don’t think that two wrongs make a right.

        This comment area is not the place to institute “an eye for an eye” methods.

      • foul tip

        Not clear to what you refer exactly, but if you’ve seen commenters personally disrespected on DT, you’ve been reading at a lot different times than I have.  And I don’t usually miss much. Nor will Jon tolerate more than just a little of that kind of thing.

        As to your apparent disdain for stats…stats actually are your friend if used properly to give context.  When I first came here–2005, I think–I understood little about modern baseball stats, didn’t even know many of them existed, let alone what they measured.

        Learning about them, mostly at or through this site, has made me a more informed baseball observer–and, yes, made it far more enjoyable.  Yes, players are more than the sum of their stats.  But those stats, at least in baseball, tell a lot of the story.

        Dude, most people use microwave ovens these days.  They take advantage of modern things, even if they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to first use.  ;-])

        • as i’ve said many times stats are of value especially when the science is being moved forward by responsible folk. i may know more about statistics than you do. but i see so many people using stats to predict the future, determining an outcome, establishing complete value for someone. that’s absurd in general but especially  if you don’t know a lot of other things about situational baseball and the marketplace. so if you come to me and say headley is a very good player because his non power/rbi/ops stats say he is and I ask why. and you repeat the numbers than i say their useless. and you’re just trying to get by with what you see at BR. I’m not saying you.

  17. Anonymous

    The Dodgers have scored a grand total of 3 runs during the 41 innings that Eovaldi has pitched this season.

    It would be ironic if he allowed a bunch of runs tonight but the Dodgers got him the win anyway.

  18. Anonymous

    Perhaps we can equal the performance of our Brooklyn predecessors who on this date:
    1900 – At Cincinnati, Jerry Nops of the Superbas pitches a one-hitter, beating the Reds, 2 – 0. Tomorrow, his teammate Frank Kitson will also pitch a one-hitter, winning 10 – 0, the first instance of back-to-back one-hitters in the 20th century. The last time it happened was June 17-18, 1884.

  19. Anonymous

    MSTI has Gordon on DL needing surgery, Guerra activated

  20. Anonymous

    Gnatt Cain and his supporting cast are making every possible effort to blow a four-run lead v. the Nats.

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